Direct Primary Care Doctor
Dr. Ingrid Liu is the owner and director of Progressive Health Primary Care, PLLC, an Oak Park-based direct primary care practice. With an extensive medical background, Dr. Liu earned her undergraduate degree at the University of Illinois, Urbana Champaign, her osteopathic medical degree at the Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine, and completed her residency at the West Suburban Hospital Family Medicine program in Oak Park.
As a dedicated family medicine practitioner, Dr. Liu chose this field for its unique ability to manage a wide range of medical conditions and connect with patients from various backgrounds and cultures. After completing her residency, she gained experience as part-time faculty at West Suburban Hospital Family Medicine Program and later worked in both a small private practice and a large multi-specialty organization.
In 2014, Dr. Liu made the transition to concierge medicine, opening the first Chicago-area office for PartnerMD, a renowned concierge medicine group based in Richmond, Virginia. This shift allowed her to prioritize quality patient care over administrative tasks. However, she soon realized that insurance-related challenges persisted, prompting her to establish Progressive Health Primary Care, a direct primary care practice, right at the onset of the pandemic shutdown in February 2020.
Dr. Liu is board-certified by the American Board of Family Medicine and maintains memberships with prestigious medical organizations such as the American Academy of Family Medicine, the American College of Private Physicians, the Independent Physicians and Providers of Illinois, the Society of Cannabis Clinicians, and the Illinois Women in Cannabis.
Born and raised in the suburb of Naperville, Dr. Liu has dedicated her entire career to serving the Chicago area. She is deeply committed to her patients and passionate about running, travel, music, and cooking. Choose Progressive Health Primary Care for personalized, comprehensive primary care in Oak Park, Illinois.
Watch the Episode Here:
Listen to the Episode Here:
Here's a glimpse of what you'll learn:
The lack of business training in the medical field after medical school and residency
The experience of transitioning from fee-for-service to concierge care and the burnout that led to that decision
The process and challenges of transitioning to the Direct Primary Care (DPC) model and eliminating insurance billing
The importance of setting boundaries and effective communication with patients in a DPC practice
The benefits and advantages of DPC, including flexible hours, accessibility for patients, and better relationships with doctors
In this episode...
Dr. Ingrid Liu of Progressive Health Primary Care in Oak Park, IL shares her journey from traditional fee-for-service medicine to direct primary care (DPC). She discusses the lack of business training in the medical field and the burnout she experienced, which led her to transition to concierge medicine before ultimately embracing DPC.
Dr. Liu talks about cold-calling a concierge model practice and deciding to make the switch. She formed WelcomeMD after a change in leadership at her previous practice, and eventually learned about DPC as a way to eliminate billing insurance.
During the transition to DPC, Dr. Liu was able to stay in her office and keep the same patients. She negotiated to stay in the same office when transitioning to her current practice and rebranded her practice to inform patients about the changes.
Dr. Liu discusses how she has become better at setting boundaries as her practice has grown. She emphasizes the need for communication and training regarding boundaries with patients, as well as setting expectations during meet and greets.
The episode also addresses the benefits of DPC, such as flexible hours and accessibility for patients. Dr. Liu's patients appreciate being able to see her after work without the anxiety of appointment availability. Specific services like medical abortion or ear piercing are offered as fee-for-service and are not part of the membership.
The importance of marketing and reviews for DPC practices is highlighted, along with the need for physicians to be comfortable marketing themselves and addressing common questions and fears about the DPC model.
Dr. Liu further shares insights on maintaining the full scope of care and the goals of being a family physician despite having a smaller panel of patients. She emphasizes the importance of following instincts and making necessary changes to find happiness in practice.
Overall, the episode delves into Dr. Liu's journey from burnout to finding fulfillment in DPC, highlighting the benefits of the model and the challenges of transitioning and marketing in the healthcare field.
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Telephone: (708) 386-3080
Email Address: info@phprimarycare.com
Main Address: 917 S. Oak Park Ave., Unit B, Oak Park, IL 60304
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Transcript*
Direct primary care is an innovative, alternative path to insurance driven healthcare. Typically, a patient pays their doctor a low monthly membership and, in return, builds a lasting relationship with their doctor and has their doctor available at the time. their fingertips. Welcome to the My DPC Story podcast, where each week you will hear the ever so relatable stories shared by physicians who have chosen to practice medicine in their individual communities through the direct primary care model.
I'm your host, Marielle Concepcion, family physician, DPC owner, and former Fee for Service doctor. I hope you enjoy today's episode and come away feeling inspired about the future of patient care. Direct. Primary care.
DPC is the way medicine should be. My first exposure to medicine was as a five year old. My grandfather was a traditional herbalist, Chinese. Medicine physician in Shanghai, and I was visiting with my family and I got some kind of illness. I wasn't feeling well. And all I remember, and this may not be accurate depiction of what happened, but as I wasn't feeling well, and my grandfather gave me a horrible smelling concoction of something to drink.
And the next day I felt fine. It was from then on that I decided that I wanted to be a physician to take care of people to help them feel better. And from then on, it was my kind of dream. And I thought that, you know, I would be someone that would be paid in chickens or whatever it was that happened back then.
And I think instilled the morals and the ethics and the idea of what it's like to be a traditional family physician. So I always thought I was a old time family doc. In the new modern health care system, which we all know doesn't work very well. So, it took me a long way to get here, but now that I'm in a direct primary care practice, I feel like I can practice the way that I want and the way that it should be, much like my grandfather did back in the day.
So, I'm Dr. Ingrid Liu of DPC story.
Dr. Ingrid Liu is the owner and director of Progressive Health Primary Care, PLLC. Dr. Liu earned her undergraduate degree at the University of Illinois, Urbana Champaign, her osteopathic medical degree at the Chicago College of Osteopathic Medicine, and completed her residency at the West Suburban Hospital.
Hospital Family Medicine residency in Oak Park. Dr. Liu chose family medicine because no other specialty provides the variety of conditions, managed exposure to the complete lives of patients and exposure to different cultures. Following completion of her residency training, she was part-time faculty at West Suburban Hospital Family Medicine Program.
She was a partner in a small private practice and later as a physician in a large multi-specialty organization. While her love of medicine continued. Over that time, she spent more and more time dealing with regulations and rules of health insurance companies and less time taking care of patients to get more time for patient care.
In 2014, Dr. Lu chose to make the leap to concierge medicine. She was recruited to open the first Chicago area office. For Partner md, a successful concierge medicine group based in Richmond, Virginia. It was a difficult decision to leave her large practice of 3,500 patients, but it was necessary to prevent quitting medicine altogether.
The concierge model allows doctors to spend more time with patients compared to a traditional practice, and while she did have more time for patient care, concierge practices, still accept insurance. She found herself still spending time dealing with insurance company rules and spending money on staff to bill insurance and deal with the inevitable headaches that brings in February of 2020.
Yes, right at the beginning of the pandemic shutdown. Dr Lou created progressive health primary care, a direct primary care practice in Oak Park. Dr Lewis board certified by the American Board of Family Medicine, and she maintains memberships with the American Academy of Family Medicine, the American College of Private Physicians.
The Independent Physicians and Providers of Illinois, the Society of Cannabis Clinicians, and the Illinois Women in Cannabis. Dr. Liu grew up in the suburb of Naperville, has lived and worked in the Chicago area her entire career, and her two daughters were born in Oak Park at West Suburban Hospital, the same place where she trained.
When she's not caring for patients or volunteering, she enjoys running, travel, music, and cooking.
Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Liu.
Glad to be here. Thank you for having me.
It's just incredible to hear your opening statement and hear that little story from your past and how impactful it was for you. I'm a person who believes that the people who have gone before us into another life are looking down on us and with us at all times.
They might not be here physically, but it is such an honor to speak with you. And I'm sure that your grandfather is also so proud of you right now. Yeah, it definitely had a great influence on me. That's for sure.
So your journey, like you alluded to, was rooted in this passion for doing quality primary care like you had seen your grandfather do, but also you mentioned how today's health care system that most people are used to in the insurance fee for service world is not allowing all most of us, if not all of us to realistically, Follow through with our calling to why we went into medicine.
So let me start with asking you about something you had said in a recent interview. You had been talking about how after working for years in fee for service, you were burned out. I want to ask specifically, when you started practicing, given what you shared about when you were five years old, what did you expect to be walking into as a family medicine physician after residency?
And how did it change over the years for you? Oh, that's really good question. Yeah, I think , my story is not that different from a lot of people that go into medicine. We want to help people. We have this sense of being able to contribute to society and to really make a difference in whatever way we can, whether it's saving lives in the emergency room or consoling, , parents of children that are sick to sewing up.
lacerations, whatever it is, , it's, it's, we have really, really good intentions. And then I think throughout the way, throughout the time and the hard work and being sleep deprived and stressed out and being pulled in a hundred different directions at the same time, you start to lose a little bit of that joy and the, and the feelings of satisfaction that you get from providing that care for people.
And so that's how I started feeling. And when you say, burnt out and, I'm a little bit older than I think some of the other docs that you've, been having on this podcast and I finished my residency in 1999. And, and I think, yeah, I thought I would just go out into the real world and continue, doing what I love to do.
I stayed on as part time faculty teaching med students and teaching residents. And, but then I was also in a private practice. With one other physician, we eventually brought on another one and, and the paperwork and the overhead and all the other things that you had to keep track of coding, coding, coding, coding, and you can't help, but it, distracts from the purpose and what you're trying to accomplish because you have to do it.
And, and I think, part of. The program that I, that I trained at was so phenomenal and exposing you to all different clinical situations, but doesn't teach any business, right? Doesn't teach you any of what you need to know to be a private practice owner, and we don't do business very well as physicians.
We all know that. So I think that I learned. Through process of, of errors and eliminations and things like that and, and now, thankfully, I'm, I'm in a business that's simplified because that has eliminated the, the insurance aspect of it, but here I am, it's 25 years later, so you learn with experience, but you also try and eliminate some of the headaches.
So that's kind of gives me the space to go back to clinical focus. I love that. And it's interesting that you talk about how, you know you didn't have business as, an elective in medical school. We didn't have that incorporated into our curriculum in 99 or in 2011. So it's like, I doubt that that's also included in a lot of med schools.
Even today I was asking my dentistry friends like, did you guys have business? And they were like, no, but we know that it's a business that you have to open up, typically, your own clinic, yada, yada, yada. And I was like, it's so interesting how even just. Expecting to be a business owner after dental school versus expecting to be an employed physician after medical school and residency create totally different mindsets when we are, going along a career path.
And the other thing I was thinking about was Dr. Tim Blakey, who was one of my dear mentors in Superior, Nebraska. He told me when he and his partner opened up the clinic. Back in, I think he graduated Creighton in 79. So we opened a clinic in Superior and he was like, these codes, like we didn't know that there were codes for things.
And so we totally missed out on a lot of revenue because we didn't know what we were doing. And it's so interesting to think back as to, like when you were doing your private practice, as well as working with. The residency and you were, you're, you're still saying, you didn't really know what to do in terms of all the coding stuff.
It's so interesting because people who are going into residency now, they still don't know what the heck they're doing. I mean, it speaks again to the, to that. We don't have business training. We don't, we're not prepared for how the business of medicine is run after medical school and residency. So with that, I want to ask, because you have.
Amazing experience going from fee for service working with the residency to then a stint about six years in concierge medicine with two different companies before opening your DPC. So I want to delve into this time when you were going from fee for service working with the two other physicians. into PartnerMD and then WellCareMD.
How did you decide to make the change from Fee for Service into ConciergeCare?
Well, yes. So, by the time I had made that decision, I probably worked maybe 3 4 years longer than I should have in the Fee for Service, model. I was pretty burnt out. I had a panel of 3, 500 patients. And not as many as my colleagues were seeing in a day, I, I think my limit is really 20 to 25 patients a day.
Anything beyond that, I would start to really. Just not be able to stay on top of things. And even then I was struggling. And so by the time I left that group, which I, highly respect my colleagues and I'm still friends with, close friends with some of my, my former partners. I was ready to quit medicine altogether, and it was, I was trying to figure out what I was going to do instead and I couldn't figure it out.
There was nothing else I wanted to do other than, take care of people, but couldn't see how I could make a living, doing that. But I, just by luck of the draw, there was a partner MD. It was a concierge, which I say this in the, in the bio, but a concierge model practice in Richmond, Virginia was expanding to open offices in the Midwest and was recruiting physicians to open one in Chicago and I just cold called answered, a postcard and wanted to find out more about it.
I mean. It was either that or MDVIP or 1 of the other, or some other similar type of concierge model practice. And there weren't as many back then as there are now, but still not that as many options. And I think I was hesitant to do it because I had to eliminate. A good large, 90 percent of my practice that I've taken care of.
So that speaks volumes as to how burnt out I was and how much I wanted to get out of that model. And felt that it was worth it to make the switch. So after about a year of my hemming and hawing and researching and trying to find something else to do and then, vetting me and figuring out if I was the right fit, then I opened up the practice and did that for.
Not that long, maybe a couple of years and just turns out that partner MD changed over executive, leadership and, allowed me to step aside and welcome MD formed as a result of that kind of branched off. I thought, well, I could probably continue to do this myself in that format and stayed concierge and kept some of the patients and then grew again a little bit.
And then eventually I got tired of just. And I learned about direct primary care kind of maybe a couple years after switching to welcome MD and doing it on my own with a part of business partner and then learned about direct primary care and how how great it would be to not have to, still bill insurance and and, I always felt that was a little bit.
It didn't really make sense to me, how could I make it make sense to the patients to, to charge a membership fee and bill insurance and then still bill for whatever was not covered by the insurance after the fact. So it just it just didn't make sense to me. It was a hard sell. And, and so when I switched to direct primary care, I eliminated that altogether, renamed, reincorporated, and then was able to stay in my office and kept the same patients and just opting out of Medicare.
And. Doing it all this way, and it's been great ever since awesome. And I'm glad you mentioned that because I wasn't sure I was going to ask you, how did you transition and did you have a space? But when you talk about that, you decided to close your. your practice under the WelcomeMD.
When you transitioned your office from working under one company to then opening your own business, how did that work? Because, like you, you mentioned with PartnerMD, they, they said, Hey, well, well, you can do your own thing. It didn't sound like there was a lot of drama with regards to Territorial behavior over patients.
So was there any lessons learned from going from WelcomeMD into your own DPC when it came to negotiating anything in your contract so that you could open up your own practice in the same space?
So I think I've been very fortunate in my situation. The, the only time that I had a non compete that I had to honor was when I left the fee for service.
Group and went concierge. I had to had a, mile radius. So I actually had to move offices out of the area that I was practicing in. So that was a challenge, but it was a challenge for PartnerMD to kind of deal with, right. And I think maybe that was part of the difficulty in the decision to kind of.
Part ways in terms of that, and then by then, my non compete had expired and I was able to move back to Oak Park where I had trained and been practicing and started welcome in the park. And I think. Switching from welcome and the. To progressive health, which is where I'm at now, I was able to, yeah, negotiate staying in the same office.
The circumstances a little bit unique and I'm still friends with the higher executives that that involved in my former business partner and all that. So I think I was just fortunate to have people who knew that it was a win win situation to kind of. Just have that happen. And I was able to keep my patients.
And I know that is probably a unique situation that a lot of other physicians are, have not been able to manage.
Well, that's what we love. Everybody is unique and everybody's sharing their story and it's, it comes from, they come from different places. So I love that that was the case because, it says to me that the people who run WelcomeMD do care about patients rather than, we care about.
Our territory and protecting the money and the codes that come in from our territorial patients or our patients within the territory. So when it comes to you opening your direct primary care practice, how did you go about planning to open? Because you're still taking care of the same patients. You're still, in the same space.
But did you have to purchase the equipment from Welcome MD? And how did you? How did you announce to your patients, like, Hey, still Dr. Liu is still going to be here, but we're going to be, a different model going forward. Right, right. Well, I mean, essentially it was a rebranding altogether and, fortunately patients stay with the doctor.
They don't stay with the business, right? They, they know and trust whoever is taking care of them. And I don't know that it was that difficult to be honest. We sent out like letters and emails and. Change the name, change the brand, made the announcement and said, we are now, welcome and D is not part of this practice anymore.
We are now progressive health, primary care and here's the big difference. It did take a little bit of explaining because, concierge medicine is actually not. Super, super mainframe or popular here in Chicago area, there are certain pockets where it's well known and then direct primary care is probably even less known than concierge medicine.
So it did require a little bit of kind of explaining. But then I was fortunate that my patients were already used to paying a membership fee. So. There is retention there for sure. And then I ended up being able to grow from that because I think personally, I felt like it made more sense. And then it was easy to to kind of pass that along.
And then I returned to my old, I was still where I was practicing before. And then I was able to market that again. I will say that probably the toughest part of having the, the business is, is not the medicine part. It's, it's the marketing part. Not used to advertising myself or marketing myself.
That has taken quite a bit of getting used to. I'm still not comfortable. In like cameras and interviews and podcasts and whatever, but, but it's part of what you have to do. And I think if you believe in, in, what you're doing, then it resonates and people certainly appreciate that. And I think that that's how it works better.
So. In terms of like the purchasing the equipment and stuff, I think it was just like a nice clean agreement that was drafted up and, and we were able to, yeah, I took over the lease and then it just was kind of straightforward.
I love it. Again, I'm so grateful that that was your experience because again, it's like.
You just want to do medicine and the, the fewer roadblocks that you have in your way to do medicine between you and your patient is wonderful. So I love that when you talk about, marketing to your patients, marketing your new practice, your patients under the new flag of progressive health. I want to ask, what did you find most helpful that patients understood more easily than other statements when you were talking to them about the transition?
I think what we try and, and say to them, I mean, we've used all different terms, people say, Oh, it's like Netflix for medicine, and, you either use it or you don't, and it's the same price, you're trying to like make analogies or it's, or it's like car insurance, but it's really not, it's more, it's more just that we tell people, I don't want to have to worry about what's covered and what's not covered.
I don't want to have to worry about sending you a bill later, and, we, we help you budget and it's, everything's transparent and you can understand what the costs are and what you're getting out of it. And, there's the decision making. Is in the, how we take care of people and not having to worry about all those other things.
And it does take a while for people to kind of grasp because it is a different concept, but then once they get it, they get it. It makes perfect sense. It's so, so much more simplified. And then, on top of that, I can dispense medication out of my office, I save them tons of money that way and like the labs or transfer all the things that, when you start describing, well, if you want to build insurance, it could be this much.
I don't know how much ability it could be that much, there's no way for me to tell. Or you can just, go with our transparent fees and this is how much it'll be. And, you can roll the dice or you can. Thank you. Say this is it and be done, clean, easy. And so that makes it easier for them.
It's interesting because, you're dealing with a patient population that was used to you as a concierge doctor. So I'm assuming the price of the fees for membership were higher than they are in DPC. Just because typically concierge medicine is, is for people with more means. And so even to have people who might have more means think about, oh, like.
I'm still, not understanding this DPC thing. Like why, how does this make sense for me? It's interesting that your patient population, given that they were in a concierge model before with most likely higher fees than a DPC membership. I love that those conversations were still had rather than like, whatever, just, send me the bill because everybody deserves transparency, no matter if you have means or no means.
And. I think it's, it's really, in my opinion, it is really taking advantage because you're double dipping when you are doing a high fee, plus you're still getting these surprise bills that you didn't expect to get that are way higher than in a lot of cases, like labs, for example, then you would have gotten, if you would have just paid transparently, it's something that definitely as a culture, this country is, getting exposure to more and more like, Hey, wait a minute.
Yeah. The insurance. thing. It's not actually equal to healthcare. And it's like, yeah, that's correct. Cause the doctor is giving healthcare that that's what healthcare really is. And really, if we look at like what medical school is and what doctor school is meant to do is meant to create people who are actually trained to take care of others.
One of the things I wanted to mention here was something that you mentioned in this recent interview that you gave was this whole idea about you had done an abscess IND and the insurance didn't cover it because you're not a specialist. I was livid when I heard that part of your interview because it's like the patients again, it's like they, they're like, Oh, Dr. Liu is a physician and surgeon. So that means she can do these things because she's sure as heck trained to do them, but my insurance doesn't cover that. How does that even make sense? It's like, it made me livid and. Patients, when they find these things out, like, I remember I had, I told Dr. Shannon shoulders. She's a gastroenterologist in Raleigh, North Carolina. I told her how I did a colonoscopy and it went from screening to diagnostic the 2nd, I took a polyp out and then she got a 7000 dollar bill and she was calling the office every single week. Like, can you fix the code? Can you fix?
I'm like. Dude, it's not, I'm not, I'm not the one putting in your code. It's literally, I just did the procedure to take care of you and to screen you for colon cancer appropriately. So us being doctors and being able to do our jobs is so valued by so many people and whether there's means on the table or not.
Right, right. Yeah, sure. If they have the means and they're well, then they're able to pay the concierge fees or membership fees or, or whatnot, but they still think about it. It's still, you still don't want to be paying more than you need to and now with the direct primary care, I think it just, I didn't lower my fees very much.
I just created kind of tears, which in concierge medicine, that doesn't happen. And, and so if, if people understand that their membership is actually hovering is, is kind of going towards the care that they're getting. And that's, that's basically all that the, the, the physicians take in.
They don't realize that when before on a fee for service or in a concierge. Practice that the doctor is not getting that whatever that cost is, that's coming back from the insurance company and people are floored by that. They don't realize that it's the facility and over and all these other things.
And the physician isn't taking any of that home. And it's. It's really eye opening to some people and I've had some people say, you don't charge enough. You should charge more, because it's like, you're, you're, you, you went to medical school and you got all this training and you, and you work really hard and you're available 24 hours a day, you compare it to some other lines of work that are not medicine.
And I think, I think a lot of direct primary care doctors do under charge, but it's okay. We're, we're, we're in it to help people. That's not, we're not in it to make. Okay.
But as people are showing, with patient panels that are reasonable when you give quality care and you have people who are seeking that care.
This is why DPC is growing all over the country. And we do have people who are, depending on how they set the pricing. If they charge for one off services or not, they're still able to make more than they did in fee for service without all of the burnout associated with that said, tell me about who has joined your practice since you went to progressive health because like you said, you have, you didn't really change your pricing much.
But the model of DPC has allowed you to see people who, are coming from all sorts of economic backgrounds rather than just those who have, high income means.
Yeah, I think, probably the largest proportion of my patients are Surprisingly, they're either small business owners themselves that have very high deductible plans, and end up paying out of pocket and exorbitant amount of care.
And even if they don't have health issues, it just ends up being cost prohibitive. Some have opted to go without insurance altogether just because. They take that chance. I don't encourage it by any means, but it's a choice that they have and they make. And then I have Medicare patients, believe it or not, who are aging and have, maybe a few concerns, maybe a lot of concerns, maybe are complex, maybe are the physicians in the fee for service practice.
Don't have the time to explain things and that's not even just Medicare patients all of them But it's you know People are frustrated and tired of not having their questions answered and not feeling like they're being heard or being cared for Sitting in the waiting area for two hours and meeting with a doctor for ten minutes it's it's the same story over and over again.
So I think really in the past year, I think since the pandemic, you know has Exposed so many issues with the healthcare industry. Doctors are stressed and nurses are stressed. People are, are, are starting to understand that they have a choice that they can make and move over to a practice and with a physician that has more time for them.
So they're, they're seeking other options. And so it's run the gamut. But, but certainly I somehow got on some kind of mom's list for college students that are without a doctor because, they've moved to the Chicago area or whatever, and a couple of patients signed up with me. And next thing, all the, all these people are calling not tons, but like, hey, are you still taking patients?
Because. My kids such and such, school and needs a doctor and loves that, like they need something they can just call and I can do a video appointment or, it doesn't matter what their class schedule is. I can like squeeze them in or whatever. I mean, it's so. It's so easy. So that's kind of, and they're probably healthy and don't really need a lot.
And, except for an occasional check in and, or if they've got, a COVID test or a strep test or whatever, it just makes sense for so many people. I love that. And that's one of my favorite things when I hear people like DPC doctors, our fellow DPC doctors send their college kids to enroll in other DPCs because they know what their kid's going to get rather than like relying on like.
Who's at the health center? Like, can I get ahold of anyone at the health center? It's like, no, you're going to go to this DPC doctor. He's my friend. So I love it. I love it. And when we talk about, young, healthy people, you mentioned it on your website, who is direct primary care good for.
And I love that, you found, as I found in my practice, that people who are healthy and want to stay that way, that's what I loved on your website. It's so true. And, I, I love that. There was really a culture change in the patients who joined from my fee for service practice to Big Trees MD in that those were the people who were not there because, Oh, I just, I have to see you.
So Medicare covers me, or, they were worried that Medicare wouldn't cover them if they didn't come for their annual physical or, they were. Like I did, I never want to come to the doctor, but I have to come now because I got discharged out of the hospital and I had to find a primary, like, I love that my, my patients are for the most part, they're just like, Hey, like, I am not in a critical situation and I'd like for me to partner with my doctor so that I'm out of those situations as much as possible.
And it's incredible, like the, especially when it comes to older people with chronic medical issues, it is amazing what. Just simple access, how much of a difference that can make in somebody's life.
So true. So true. I mean, I think that's another thing that, I definitely ran into when I first started having a concierge model practice.
I think I, it was suddenly all these people are just happy to have access, they're, they're more, I think, proactive about their health because of that, because you're paying into something. But it's also, this mindset of. Okay, I don't have to save up a problem list of 10, 15 questions because I can only get into my doctor for 10 minutes out of the year, and they're like, so busy to try and hurry up and get all their and they save it all up for that one visit.
And I try and say, well, you just email me or call me if you have a question and let's knock it out and be done with it. Don't wait until you come see me in person, because that's the old mentality. You don't have to do that. And, and people think, wow, how refreshing is that? That if I see something that I thought might be interesting, can I just ask you about it?
I'm like, yes, please. I don't want you to try it without asking. So yeah, it's definitely more the relationship that I always expected to have with my patients.
Love that. Now let me ask you about SEO because you trained in Oak Park, you were, around the Chicago area when you were in concierge, then you went back to to Oak Park between WelcomeMD and Progressive Health.
So in terms of your SEO, did you have any issues like claiming your, Dr. Ingrid Liu profile? And do you have any suggestions for people who are Still within the same area might be, practicing going from fee for service into DPC and maximizing SEO while they open DPC. Oh my goodness, I have a very good person that does my CSEO and I've learned that's another learning curve thing.
Yeah, there are still, of course, search engines and Yelp or whatever that are under my former practice names and whatnot. So I, I, again, I was very lucky to be able to. Keep my phone number and my address and all that. So that made things a lot easier been trying to claim one of the other sites for a long time, but they have to, you have to ask them to cancel and blah, blah, blah.
So I think that my marketing person. Would love for me to say that reviews do matter. I fought him on that. I don't know for a long time, but it does push up your, your search engine stuff for Google. For sure. It makes a big difference. People read the reviews. It helps boost your standing or whatever. And so I guess.
Right now we're actually, because I have two offices, my main office is in Oak Park and I have like a satellite office by appointment only in, in downtown Chicago. And we're trying to figure out if I need a separate review page for the Chicago office. But it all depends on, if I am wanting to grow that location more.
It's wild. This is stuff that I never thought I would be even talking about, as a physician. But it is important because people want to be able to, you want to be visible and we want to find you. So, yeah, every once in a while, someone says that they were, they're, they're looking for me and they found that I was working, at some practice that I haven't been at for 15 years, are you still at such and such address like, no, but, they eventually will find you if they, I mean, I fortunate that I, because I practice for so long in the same area that it's.
Pretty easy through word of mouth and through however many different listings there are that they eventually find me. I'm still listed in all the insurance booklets. I mean, so it's been three and a half years since going DPC. I sent all the letters out but you know people are still not as many as in the beginning but many people were saying you know I found Dr. Liu is listed in my insurance, can I come make an appointment? It's never going to end, I don't think. But that's okay. Draw them to my practice. We explain the whole model. My office manager is fantastic at taking the time to describe DPC and some say, Oh, no, thanks. I'm going to use my insurance.
And others say, Oh, tell me more, and then you just kind of start that.
I love that. And I, I think that that's one of the things that, you know, as you talk about being comfortable more and more with marketing yourself as a physician, talking about the model of DPC, when we get the same questions or like the same fears or the same, like, how does it work type questions?
Like, would it work for me type questions? I think we also think about patients who fit into those categories and it makes it easier to talk about like, or to answer those questions in our meet and greet, I guess, link for people to, to self schedule their meet and greet. We have included questions like, how did you hear about us and what are you looking for in a doctor?
And so it's very interesting from even those questions. To hear, to go into mean great. And for me, that's how I've kept down my time. It used to be like 21 minutes, 25 minutes, sometimes how I keep it down to 15. Cause I know exactly like what they're looking for. And some of them are just like, I want to know more about DBC, but I love that, people who are engaging because of search engines like Google, I really am finding that most of them are very open to like.
I generally get the feel of what's on your website, so like you're telling me generally this isn't different from normal fee for service medicines, what does that mean for me? And I love that they're asking that because most of the time those types of people, and I don't know if this is the same for you, but most of the time those people, as soon as they It's like they, they think they know what DPC is.
And then when they hear those keywords, like transparency, access, they're like, bingo. Like, where do I sign up? And so I love that through experience. And like you just said, your past three year mark, which is awesome. We slowly get this confidence to keep going and marketing ourselves. And. I think it really helps when we are marketing well, our patients understand our value proposition and how we describe it.
And then they trickle that down to their friends and family, just like the college students.
Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it is true that whatever that calculation is that the three year mark is when you really have to do very little marketing and it's mostly word of mouth because that is for sure the case, either just by a sense of.
How new patients are coming to me now, every once in a while, they say, well, yeah, I, I talked to you about a year ago and I didn't really want, I didn't understand it. And now I just can't take it because I haven't been able to get into with my doctor and, or so there's all different scenarios, but people.
People really, once they, once they see what they, are able to achieve and, and that they can, sometimes I answer the phone. I mean, I have 1 staff person. And so if she's busy, I answer the phone and I, and they go, oh, did I call the wrong number? I'm sorry. I didn't mean to call you a direct number.
I'm like, there's 1 number. There's only 1 number and they get so surprised when the doctor answers the phone and they go. Yeah. Oh okay, I won't take what's your diet, I mean, it's just really, really fun to see. Those are such fun moments. Like I, even in meet and greets when it's like on our practice previously, before my husband joined the practice, it said, meet and greet with Dr.
Conception. And so they're like. The people would come onto the meet and greets and they'd be like, Oh yeah, so does Dr. Conception do, or does Dr. Conception seem like, yeah, like I I'm Dr. Conception. Like they expected to not have the doctor even during the meet and greet. So, so funny. Yeah. Tell me about when going, with this theme of transition, when you transitioned to your own DPC, did you change your tech at all?
Your EMR or your phone service, anything like that? Oh, yeah. I had to change the EMR. Absolutely. Am I allowed to say, I don't know, but I, I had a, more standard like next gen Athena. I can't remember which one it was. It was like a big, not epic, but it was a big, major EMR and then, without needing the coding and all that stuff and and the insurance billing it just.
So then I went more simplified and, and did a little bit of research and of course, reached out and got a lot of guidance from other DPC folks, which is. So fantastic. That's another big difference, I think, between the DPC community and the, the fee for service realm. I think physicians are so, so stressed out and burnt out and whatnot and taught that, you don't want to help the competition, it's just like a, a, a caustic environment, or toxic environment and coming to DPC world.
Everybody wants to help everybody. It's just so refreshing. And I was able to get. All the information I needed from anybody, and I was able to kind of research a little bit and find what, matched with my needs and it's been great.
Awesome. And when you made this transition to DPC, given that you didn't have an MBA, you were learning business a little bit with each concierge move, and then opening your own DPC.
Do you have any, big tips from your experience that you want to, share with the audience when it comes to. Being a business owner and a physician. Well, I think, well, depending on, depending on who we're dealing with, everybody has their talents and their, strong points, right?
And some people are more business minded than others and you can't do it all. I think for me, I allow my office manager to help me out quite a bit. I wouldn't be able to do it without her. I'm very fortunate to have, she does everything in terms of a lot of the business running and the billing and the memberships and the Ordering supplies and then also rooms patients and does he key cheese and whatever else so, she's a diamond in a rough, and so if you can find somebody like that, that is. To hang on to that person. And I, probably maybe I do, spend money on, on the, the marketing aspect, which I suppose I could probably cut back on, but it's valuable to me to continue to, to have him help, boost those things.
And I outsource some things, and yeah, you can't, you can't do it all. And if you feel like you need some, some help to ask for it, I think that that's probably. The, the, the biggest thing that I've learned, through experience, you can, you can read all you want, but, talk to people that are in it and that are doing it.
I'm happy to pay it forward and, and try and like, not have people make the same mistakes that I made. I think. In private practice, not only were we, coding incorrectly, we also had billers that were not good and not telling us that we were coding incorrectly. I mean, that you, you, you wanna surround yourself with good people who are, are happy to work for you and help you succeed.
Like give them some kind of, not incentives, but, but ownership in the, in, in the practice, and just kind of. Surround yourself with people who are, who are happy to be there and, and because it is a lot of work, no matter what, and I think that that's probably my biggest tip, because the medicine stuff.
The medicine stuff, you get to it, you do it, but, and you have more time to research, and figure out what the next step is and you don't have to answer it all in one visit, so that's, that, that kind of is, is freeing and gives you more time to do some of the business stuff, but if you don't like it, you don't have to do it, you can find somebody else to do it for you, it's.
It's not necessary. I mean, and I think that there's different different ways to run a DPC practice, you know I think that's also nice that people get creative and I don't do I don't do colonoscopies. I don't do like major Procedures. I definitely you know wouldn't wouldn't want to do that and other people do a lot more procedures and Cosmetics and things like that.
It's just You know, I think if you're, if you're in the scope of what the standard of care is, fantastic, just do, do you and, and that's the people and not try and change who you are to meet what people want, you'll, you'll draw the people to your practice, love it. When we talk about creativity, I want to ask you about workflows because I'm going to ask you about your add on services that you have at your clinic, but in terms of workflows, because you went from these different models of care into your own DPC, what workflows are you proud of to make your patients have that great access, but also so it saves your sanity when you're like not having to look for certain things or, do duplicitous work in your practice?
Oh, that I could probably still improve on to be honest, I think probably well, because there's only one other employee and myself, the communications much better, I mean, making lists and like, kind of. Making sure that everything is done is a lot easier than when you have a large four person practice with all their staff and like having to triage and blah, blah, blah, we don't have any of that.
And so messages and refills and things like that are pretty straightforward. All that kind of comes to me. And if I need my staff, my 1 person staff to do something for me, I just send a little note and it gets done. I think. We have electronic fax, instead of paper fax, that was like thing that I changed from, believe it or not, from concierge medicine to direct primary care.
So all of that goes immediately into the person's chart or both she and I see the faxes, instead of one person being in charge of like pulling it off the machine. I mean, it sounds so simple, but it really is that saves a lot of work. And also like, if somebody misses one, then, the other person gets it.
So. That's one example, we kind of check each other's, work and making sure documentation, I think, ordering supplies to is another one that we could probably keeping inventory. That's a little bit more cumbersome from an aspect that probably could probably figure out a little bit better way of that, to be honest, but in terms of patient care, it's.
It's way easier, even from from the concierge model, because it was from the concierge model. If you're billing insurance, you still have to document and make sure that everything like the T's are crossed and the I's are dotted and that you've checked all the right boxes. And so it's just, and there's none of this quality care, blah, blah, blah, Medicare, physicals, like you mentioned, all those things that that you have to make sure And chronic care management and all those things that are part of insurance.
So with DPC, we just make sure that we have everything where it's supposed to be. And yeah, it's much easier. I think it's so important that you mention it like you did though, because one, for those people who are Even still on the fence about like, oh, but it must be so much work to run a business. It sure as heck, like you said, is, and I agree with that.
However, there are ways that the business can be streamlined so that you're doing it, you're learning from it, you're fixing it. And it can be, that way for a very long time. And like you said, you're not adding that insurance layer to it. So the like. 14 point review of systems, what is it?
I, I've like, I used to be able to pump this out and now it's like negative unless otherwise noted in, in HPI. Like never have I had to say that in DVC and it's amazing. Oh my gosh. Oh man. But I also love that, when we really zoom out reading into what you've said is like, you literally are just able to do the things you need to do.
To be able to take care of your patients and not take care of the insurance company at the same time. So, with that, when you talked about your main office in Oak Park and then you have a satellite office in Chicago, how did that happen and did that have to do with the add on services that you have in addition to membership?
No, that started, I think that actually started when I was still doing concierge medicine. And I had a lot of patients who would live in the suburbs and work. In the downtown city area, and some of them wanted, like, executive physicals as part of their membership. So it was easy to find a to have, like, that downtown office for convenience for those patients.
But then when the pandemic hit, which was the same time that I decided to go direct primary care, nobody was working downtown anymore and nobody was going into a high rise building and nobody was commuting and nobody was, yeah. So we shut that second office and kept the Oak Park one, never, never closed the doors and always just.
Manage everything and ran telehealth or whatever, and then once things started opening up again, my patients that live downtown or started commuting downtown again, it made sense to try and have just for convenience, a location there. And yeah, so you're, you mentioned the services that I do. And so the cannabis consultations continue to be high demand.
There's not a lot of physicians that have the freedom to offer that if they're employed by hospital systems, because it's frowned upon. Even though it's totally legal, recreational and medical in, in Illinois, but if they're affiliated with Medicare or other government, funded facility, it's still not something that they can prescribe or recommend or whatever.
So I have been getting a lot of referrals. Based on my knowledge and involvement in that, and so they were coming from all over, and still do from far suburbs to in, in the city and so I do that quite a bit and yeah, but mostly it was for patients, just kind of access to care.
Love it. And as the pandemic has gotten to a point where people are returning to the city to commuting, etc. How is your week split up now that you have both offices? Yeah. So I think the majority of my patients still go to the Oak Park office. I mean, it's, they know that that's where my hub is. I basically tell them that they can, and it changes depending on.
Availability or whatever, but I sublet the space from another physician that is actually a surgeon. I mean, she's not a family med doc and, so when, when she's not in the offices, when I can be there, though, there is enough space for both of us, it's a really nice location. So, we people, I can be downtown on these days of the week, pick 1 of those days.
If you need to see me. And so it's not ideal for people who get sick on a day that I'm not down there, and I'm not sitting down there if I don't have patients, right, because I'm always needed in a part. So sometimes I end up just doing video appointments, because it doesn't work out.
And then. Other days when I have one patient that says, oh, can you see me on this day, then we start calling people that we know are located downtown and just, or, or sending emails to say, hey, it actually was going to be in the office on this day. FYI, if you need something, let us know or whatever.
And I usually do a half day there and split the day, or I'll do a whole day 1 and but the phone calls. All ring in the Oak Park office. Yeah. So there's not like, and my, and my staff doesn't go with me downtown. The staff stays, so it's, it's easier, to have one location. And then I just bring my laptop and have my cell phone and do everything from downtown.
Yeah. That way. So freeing, so freeing because, like. Sitting in an office from eight to five or, my husband and I would do, I think we would do two full days and then one half day and then we would switch and the other person would do one half day and then two full days to end of the week and, there would be days like snow days where I'd be like, Why am I here?
Like why can't I work from home? And like, we learned, like you said, the pandemic really showed our whole country how, there are issues in American health care. And one of those was access to telemedicine. Like, I love being a DPC doctor. And setting boundaries when it comes to like, yes, like we can actually manage this over telemedicine.
You do not have to physically come into the office to review your labs. I mean, clearly, like if you cannot hear me over video visit or whatever, because of hearing issues, like no problem. Like we'll talk so you can read my mouth or whatever. Or I can talk louder in person, but it's like you have the options.
So I just love that, that's how you've made it work for your patients. When it comes to boundaries, like I'm talking about, because you have come from concierge into DPC, how have you been, in regards to setting boundaries, have you Have you strengthened your, confidence in setting boundaries with your patients over time?
And if so, how? Yeah, that's a great question.
I, I definitely have been better at setting boundaries and part of it is out of necessity. As the practice grows, I don't have the time to sit, and chat with someone for two hours or whatever. And not that I do that, but my accessibility is still there, but, I need to give everybody equal time.
So now at the meet and greets, set expectations and say, it is just me 24 7. And so you just keep that in mind that if you are wanting something and answer, quickly that you should call and leave a message. Like so many people call and hang up or, or won't leave a voice or text, but then don't say what, I mean, it's just, so you have some, some people you have to really, really lay it out and other people, I say, look, if you're calling me at 2 a.m. for something that could have waited in the morning, it only makes me tired and crabby for everybody the next day. I've gotten to the point where I'm not afraid to say that and it just helps them understand. Oh, you mean, if I call you, you're going to answer. I'm like, yes. Or, it's such a concept and they, or they text in the middle of the night thinking I won't see it until the morning I go, well, I can't exactly silence my phone because if rings, and so sometimes it's a little bit of training and sometimes it's, and I used to think that that would be asking, like being rude or, whatever.
But now I realize, look, it's for everybody to, to. Feel better about knowing, like, what I am there for and what's realistic and what should be, helpful in the long run. Otherwise, I'm not going to ever answer any of your, questions because then it just makes me bitter. But people, yeah, you do have to lay expectations and boundaries.
And. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't sometimes people have a hard time changing their behaviors and you just, have to understand where they're coming from. And then the, the communication, like, helps open up a lot of, like, other things that, realize that are happening in people's lives.
And I have time to do that and that's fine. So, but, yeah, you definitely need to say, okay, and people that's 1 thing. Like, I don't have regular evening or weekend hours. But if, if you work and you can't get in to see me during those hours, I'll make an exception. And some people are like, oh, no, no, no, I don't want you to stay late.
I'm like, well, when, when am I going to see you then? I'm never going to see you. So I say, I can stay late, I'll be here until seven. Come in. It's no big deal. Or on a Saturday morning, I'll meet you at the office. It's no big deal. Just tell me ahead of time. I'm not going to be here every Saturday morning.
I'll just, make an exception. And people really appreciate that. They totally do. And I, I love that, you're talking about that because with us owning our own practices and us being able to set our hours, I, I feel that that's why some of my younger people, especially have joined the practice because they're like, Wait a minute, like I get off at five every day from school or work and you're telling me that like if I needed to see you, I could actually come in after work and I'm like, yes, and they're like, is that part of the membership?
And I'm like, yes. And so they're like, oh my God. So yeah, it's, it's really, it's really great. But I, I do agree with you also that. That anxiety that happens initially when patients join onto a DPC practice, it does go away. And then that's also something that I found our patients are really proud of.
They're like, Oh yeah, I don't have to like have my Santa's list of problems. Like I just have to have my one question and I can just, put it in the portal or put it in the text or whatever it needs to, whatever needs to happen so that. I can get my questions answered, but I don't, I don't have this anxiety of I can't get in to see my doctor.
And for me, it's like, not only is that right, like I'm, my righteous rage is coming out, but also I think it's so awesome. Like I get this feeling and I'm sure you do too. Like I was able to help more people in a better way without having like, I have to now answer 15 questions in a message because they had to bank their questions until the one day they could see me or the one time that I would read their email.
So I just, I, DBZ is just amazing all around. Oh my goodness.
Yes, yes, absolutely. Now, when it comes to access, I want to ask because you also offer medical abortion services and you also offer medical ear piercing. So when you have patients who are coming to your practice and coming to see you for these services, including medical cannabis, how do you turn on and off the access when it comes to after hours care, if they were to have like complications from procedures, not necessarily medical cannabis, but when it comes to like.
The abortion services and the ear piercing services. How do you, or do you distinguish access between a member and somebody who's coming to you for a one off visit?
No, I don't really distinguish between that. I mean, it's pretty clear ahead of time when they make the appointment that they're not members of the practice.
And so they're only coming to me for that one reason, if they want to ask me about anything else or if something that's not related to that, then they have to join or they go back to their regular physician or whatever. And so that's kind of laid out and. And it's a, and that's a fee for service, right?
So that it's a one time fee and it's not and sometimes. Yeah, sometimes it'd be cheaper for them to be a member than it would be to pay the fee, but I haven't run into that, to be honest, thankfully, it's, it's laid out in terms of what I'm available for for anyway, for emergencies. And so, absolutely.
I wouldn't want to discourage someone from calling if it was something that was related to that. The medical cannabis is a little bit trickier. They're, they're clearly coming in for a consultation to help them, either choose wisely. Or get certified or whatever, and if they're still having issues and they're having medical conditions that are having to be managed, usually it's related to that.
Then I say, it would just benefit you to join my practice and I could do all that. And I have gotten quite a few patients that way. Yeah, because they want a physician that understands. The pharmacology and the understand, the risks and the benefits and how to adjust their medications and that kind of thing.
So that's one thing, but the medical abortions and the piercing, I mean, obviously that's like a one off thing. Awesome. And I love that you mentioned that also because A very common question that I get from physicians or residents or medical students who are learning about DBC is like, but you're on 24 seven, isn't that draining?
And, when patients don't have the anxiety of, I can't ever get a hold of you, they don't tend to email or text after hours. And I will say, like, I do agree with you also that there are some who need a little bit of like. Hey, I'm going to remind you here that this is where the boundary is set. And like, I don't need to text about, you need Tylenol at 10 o'clock at night.
Like you can actually go buy that at the dollar general if it's still open. So, I love that. And I'm, I think that that's really good for people to hear, especially if they're exploring DPC. Now, when it comes to family medicine one of the things that you had written on your website was that you loved the specialty of family medicine because it allowed you like no other specialty to provide the variety of conditions.
To provide a variety of the conditions managed exposure to the complete lives of patients and exposure to different cultures. So I wanted to ask, how do you maintain that full scope of care and those goals of being a family physician when you have a panel that's not 3500 patients any longer?
Yeah, that was also part of the reason why I think concierge medicine was not a fit for me because it did end up.
Making the pool so small and did not give me as much variety is what I, I really miss that. I, I, oh, Park is easy is in Chicago is extremely diverse, but Oak Park is a is a very special place and in that it has. A large range of different ethnicities and socioeconomic backgrounds and, religions and different things.
It's just kind of a unique community and it's known for that. Everybody has, room to grow, of course, but I've been fortunate that even with the small. Smaller, panel that I still have a bit of variety, but it's also it's interesting the answers that you'll get if you ask the right questions, you think about, what was your upbringing?
Like, if you came from a divorced home, or if you, grew up in a rural area, moved to and vice versa, it's, it's just getting to know the patients and. Their histories and what they were exposed to when they were younger that helped shape how they approach their health care now is such a big process that I think, I still really enjoy.
I mean, so this is my favorite example. I probably told this story before, but I had a patient for years in my fee for service practice. He followed me, through to, I don't think he, Okay. Came along when I was, I don't think he joined when I was concierge, but then found me again when I was direct primary care.
Anyway, came back to me. And so all together, I've probably been his physician for 20 years, right? And it wasn't until I was in the direct primary care office that he revealed that he as a 50 year old man eats Captain Crunch every day for breakfast. and struggling with some of his A1C numbers. And I'm thinking, I know that you eat Cap'n Crunch, as, as an adult.
And, and, why can't I get your, your, your A1C numbers down? But it's something that, he's grown up and that's like his, his comforts and that's what he, so we had to work
with that. I love that. And I love that you've pointed out how, when we, when we talk about diversity, our patients are just as diverse as us opening DPCs.
And, I, I love that it's, it's ironic that you're talking about this man and his Captain Crunch. Like today, I was taking out sutures and I was like, So where did your parents meet? Like, where did your parents come from? And like, it's, it's like, cause what else am I going to do?
Like be silent when I'm taking out stitches or like turn on elevator music. Like for me, the option is like, Hey, let's just get to know you some more. And this is a patient I've been taking care of for now eight years. So it's really cool. Like I didn't know this and it, it like even just picking up stuff, like.
Even if it doesn't matter for that visit, you can totally piece other parts of the history together as to like, why does this patient do X, Y, or Z or act in an X, Y, or Z way. So I love, love,
love that. Or, or someone who's, father was a accomplished writer and like won some major, award. And I'm like, Oh, that's so fantastic.
I mean, there's all these different things that. People really, there are parts of their lives that we only know a tiny part of, it's it's been fun. Love it. So now looking back with your experience in choosing family medicine as a specialty, with you working with residents, working in fee for service, two different concierge practices, and now your own DPC, if you were to talk to your former self, graduating out of residency, what lessons would you say to your former self?
And what lessons would you say to your future self, given what you know now? You
know, it sounds really, really cheesy, but I, I would say, no matter what, it all works out. Just keep at it, follow your instincts, don't do something just because you think you're supposed to do it that way. But I wouldn't go back and change a thing.
I mean, the, the, the doctor that I am today is because of all those different steps that I took and all the different things I was exposed to. And all the different people along the way. Yeah, I mean, even, even, except that maybe I should have quit fee for service a couple years before that. I don't think I needed to yell at my kids nearly as much as I did during those years.
I mean, that, that's something that I probably would have said, okay, you know what, if you're that miserable. Waking up, dreading going to work every day, and it doesn't seem to ever get better. That's when it's time to make a change. Love it. And with that, thank you so much, Dr. Lu, for joining us today.
Thank you. I enjoyed it.
Next week, look forward to hearing from Dr. Clint Flanagan of Nextera Healthcare. If you've enjoyed the podcast and you haven't yet done so, subscribe today and share the episode with a physician you may know who needs to hear about DPC. Leave a five star review on Apple Podcasts and on Spotify now as well, as it helps others to find all these DPC stories.
Lastly, be sure to follow us on social media. If you're wanting to continue learning more about DPC in the meantime, check out dpcnews. com. dot com. Until next week, this is Mariel Conception.
*Transcript generated by AI so please forgive errors.
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